Browns Gas/HHO Part Two
April 19th, 2008On May 28 of last year, I posted an article questioning and challenging a Video I had received online about a technology that could potentially turn water (H2O) into a viable source of energy. For the most part, I debunked it. Several other skeptics echoed or expanded upon my sentiments. Still others challenged our refusal to accept the possiblity the concept could be true.
Since then, others have more or less dropped the argument, but proposed other “additive” technologies for improving gas mileage. Recently we have received a few ‘testimonials’ verifying the validity and efficacy of some “Brown’s” theory-based kits.
As of this writing, there are 81 comments. In the interests of saving those of you who have already joined the discussion, the time it takes to scroll down to the most recent comment, I invite you to continue the exchange of ideas here. Anyone new to this blog can check out the original article and comments for background, which I have found valuable, and don’t want to delete any for something as trivial as space.
In the spirit of continuity, here are the two most recent comments, and again many thanks to all of you for taking the time to think and respond to this issue of becoming more energy efficient, and less dependent of gas and gobs of oil at $115 a barrel.
Charlie Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 10:54 pm e
I will also post any of my findings after I install my 2 HHO generators onto my 2001 Ford Focus.
If I can possibly get hold of a video camera, I will post this on youtube and leave a link for you guys.
I understand this is a discussion on whether these things work or not, and I have personally witnessed the
outcome on more than one vehicle. (see posts # 61 and 62). I would love to back this up with some video
evidence, but for now I can only give my word. It’s all I got for now!
nittygrity Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 11:03 am e
this is an ebay response i recieved when questioning the product and it addressed my concern with the o2 sensor.
Hi m_thomas1971
Thanks for your interest in the H2X2 Parts Kit.
Yes this system will work on any ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) but with any car with
Fuel Injection I do recommend an EFIE as a complement to my H2X2. I have tested the EFIE
and it does help on extra MPG when used with a Hydrogen Booster.
If you would like more information please check this URL:
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/affiliates/jrox.php?id=123
I hope this helps.
Thanks…Jim
April 21st, 2008 at 10:02 am
Charlie,
Did you get your kits installed?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Anyone see this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hydrogen-Generator-HIGH-OUTPUT-Fuel-Cell-Hybrid-System_W0QQitemZ150223403530QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150223403530
THey are selling it for $1500.00 though…
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
By the time I checked it out, it sold. It’s still cheaper than buying smaller car (assuming the vehicle you have is in good condition). At the rate gas prices are going up. It could easily save most people $50-$100 a week.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Tapia,
I found a ton videos on Youtube, of folks making the conversion… To some degree, the part about running a tube between the generator and your intake manifold, seems very easy. But the part about making the generator, is the diffcult part. I just want to toss one of these things into my 07 Altima. Its a 4-cyl, and I get between 27-30mpg on the highway… but I want to improve upon that kind of gas mileage… soon.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:38 am
Hey Perry (and everyone else)
I have not installed my unit(s) yet, because I can’t find any room in the engine compartment!
I think a mechanic slept with a car designer’s wife and as revenge he slammed everything he could under the hood to make repairs a pain in the ass.
So, I am looking at installing these units in the trunk. I will definitely let everyone know here when it’s done. I also need to get hold of a video camera to document my findings.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:45 am
Thanks! Looking forward to your bonafide experience and opinion.
April 27th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
I’m just comming to this discussion. I recently downloaded the plans for the “smackbooster”, which is one of these HHO boosters. (the plans were FREE .. so don’t waste your money buying plans). Went today and bought the stainless steel plug plates and assembled them in about hour. I already have the 4″ PVC, and many of the other components. Going tomorrow to buy the tubing connectors. I’m also going to order the KOH (used for making soaps), which is the suggested electrolyte for the system (they say do not use NaCOH).
I’ll be putting this on my 2000 Jeep. I don’t drive this vehicle much, and am for the most part doing it as an experiment to see if this stuff is fact or fiction.
I am a scientist, and to add to the technical aspect of this discussion, one has to mention that hydrogen has a faster flash speed than does petroleum. The added oxygen can’t hurt either, even if the amount is miniscule. But, basically, the theory would go, that the faster flash speed of hydrogen would act as a super spark for burning the gasoline. Someone mentioned vaporizing the gasoline … possible that the initial flash of hydrogen does this within the cylinder .. of course, we’re working on millisecond time frames here.
Since my Jeep is a “project” vehicle, I’m going to play with it to find the best results. I’m figuring that I will eventually have to get a programable ECM to adjust the throttle body injections system. Thought about the EIFI or whatever they call it, but I don’t know what that is, or if it is as completely programable as the ECM, where I can adjust both timing and fuel.
Maybe someone could tell me a bit more than the website previously posted on the first thread .. it didn’t tell me much.
At anyrate … I have a whole host of environmental wackos on another board I frequent awaiting the results of my experiment. Me personally, I’m as conservative as they come, think AGW is a bunch of hooeee, and couldn’t care less about being “green” (in my world, read as socialists). But I am a cheap Bas***d, and am all about saving money!
I’m bookmarking this site .. when I get some results .. I’ll be back!
(but then, I’ll check back anyway to see if anyone knows more about these EICIFs or whatever they are called).
April 28th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Please do, Deanster… I am tired of paying $300.00 a month for gas, even with my 4-cyl…
April 28th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Hey, Deanster, How about a link to those free plans? Thanks!
April 28th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.html
In the third paragraph, there is a link to a pdf file “Smack’s Booster Revealed”
It’s complete with pictures, materials list, spacing, methods, etc.
It’s an awsome site!!
The most expensive thing I’ve had to buy is the amp meter ($21), as you have to add the KOH until you reach 10-15 amps current.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Thank you so much!!! I can’t wait to see/hear the results — especially if they’re from Jeff of the North.
April 29th, 2008 at 7:41 am
I think I might take the dive, and do it myself…on my 07 Altima…
April 29th, 2008 at 8:08 am
Seein an article like this, lets me know that it is possible…
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html?page=1%2C1
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:04 pm
hi everyone, just put mine in my car (2005 neon) today…sort of,I have my cell sitting on my passenger seat with a tube and jumper cables going out the window to under the hood.i was too excited to install properly. I also discovered a leak inthe top of my cell, hho and steam coming out. oh well proceeded to drive(mostly highway)300 miles(thats easy to do in oklahoma). My mpg increased from 33mpg to 59 mpg!!!!!!!!!! thats with a leak. my electolyte is one third rubbing alcohol and two thirds water and 2 spoon fulls of baking soda. the cell did get hot.i dont know how apparently no one does but this works and i am going to make more and better. anyone know anything about pulsed current?as in how to.
parts for mine cost under 20.00 walmart and lowes.
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Yeah, baby. This is amazing!!! Where did you get yours?
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:37 pm
i made it myself after watching 500 you tube videos, what is crazy is that there is so many different views about this stuff even though it has been around for so long how is it that we dont know how or why
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:50 pm
i used 12 little stainless steel condiment cups (4 for a dollor at wallmart)for my plates a lock top rubbermade container for the housing two tiny pieces of all thread rod (2 dollars)to connect my plates (holes drilled through the cups of different diameters so i could alternate positive neutral negative neutral positive etc.).
10 foot of small diameter tubing (2.00 dollars lowes)a couple of rubber gromets 3 dollars hooked it up and booyaah 2 plus liters a minute tube it though a bubbler straight into the back of my air filter.
May 3rd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
murf….
Which instructions did you use?
DO you think you could make a sturdier more reliable unit, if I send some money your way?
May 5th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Ok, I’m hooked. I am picking up stuff for the Smack Booster and I am putting it in my 96 Chevy Pick up. I have 5 years of mileage logs so I know what it costs to run this pig. If this does any good at all, it will be going into the rest of my company’s fleet. I should have it in within 2 weeks (daughter graduating so time is tight)and will report rresults ASAP. I am in Colorado so we are warm now, but if this works, it will be in my Daughter’s 88 blazer heading to NORTH DAKOTA this fall.
May 5th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Great! Looking forward to hearing from you.
May 5th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Joe the Jet, where are you in Colorado? I’m in the Springs and would to discuss this with you.
May 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I am in the springs also. I just got the last of my material today and am starting production this afternoon. (5/8)
May 9th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Kent, get in touch with Tapia & He will give you my e-mail address. Then we can get together.
I finished my build (on the 2nd atempt)of the cell. If you build it, make sure you use JAMB nuts as you won’t get the cell into the PVC if you use regular size nuts. I hope to drill & tap the unit tonight and maybe get it totally tubed up. My only 2 remaining problems will be mounting it and a local source of KOH. Do you know of any here in the Springs?
Joe
May 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
I’ll be building a cell over the next week or so, and trying it out on my 2002 Sunfire (2.2L engine) We’ll see what kind of gains I get from my current 28-30mpg. I’ve got this page bookmarked for reference, I’ll post my results.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Great! Can’t wait…..
May 9th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Hey Joe,
Are doing a photo or video journal on this?
May 11th, 2008 at 12:03 am
well hi , i look into this thing and some of the stuff is true i mean the websites i order a hho container for about 150.00 plates an all iam going to give it a try ??? some of you are right
about the room for the thing iam going to change the air cleaner housing for a smaller one on a chevy 4.3 eng and put the unit there may be two of them if it works iam going to do all my cars i have no choice at 4.09 a gallon of gas
May 11th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Tapia, So many people have that I didn’t think one more was necessary. I will do some though. I will be picking up all my wiring and the last of my tubing today. I will have to fabricate something for mounting though. I am still looking for a source for my electrolyte here locally. If anyone knows of a company (or type of company) that sells either Potassium or sodium hydroxide OTC, please let me know. I don’t want to wait for mail order stuff.
May 11th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Dear People,
I only can see 28 comments, how can I see them all?
Thanks,
Oz
May 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
This thread began at
http://www.mmmfiles.com/mmm/index.php/2007-05-28/70/
May 13th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Hi there Tapia and others. Just a comment to Joe the Jet. NaOH goes by a trade name “Caustic Soda” and KOH goes by the name “Caustic Potash”. You may have more luck at your local store or Hardware if you ask for these.
cheers
May 13th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Hey all, I have a fairly new Tacoma. Do you guys think it’s risky at all to to install this - like chance of explosions? I mean Hydrogen is extremely explosive. I wouldn’t want to be driving on the highway and have an explosion under the hood.
Thanks,
–jim
May 13th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Though I’m intrigued by those of you who have decided to run with this technology, I don’t know that I would risk a fairly new vehicle. I think if I get to the point where I’m willing to jump, I’ll probably try it out on an older “transportation” care. That way, if anything blows up, figuratively or otherwise, I won’t have sacrificed too much.
However, you probably want to hear from those who have “walked the talk.” Whaddya’ll think?
May 13th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I kind of agree - I was thinking of getting an old honda civic - mine used to get 45 mpg on the highway anyway - and putting it on that sucker.
May 14th, 2008 at 12:04 am
That makes sense.
May 14th, 2008 at 10:39 am
I’ve stumbled across this post yesterday. I’ve been looking into Brown’s Gas Generators for about a week now. Although I completely think what some of the popular websites, i.e. water4fuel, run your car on water, are somewhat scams because their claims are nearly impossible, I think there is a lot of value in the science behind it.
Last night I made a proof of concept, something “free” from crap I had in the house, to see if I could indeed make hydrogen from water. This absolutely works. I used a AC adaptor (~3 volts, .380 amps) hooked unto bolts drilled through a tall tupperware container. The bolts had paper clips that I spiraled by wrapping them around a screwdriver.
Filled the tupperware with water had a vent hose from an old fish tank also attached to the lid. Plugged it in and little tiny bubbles started pouring off one of the two paper clips. It was the black wire, so I’m assuming neg- side.
I plan on expanding this experiment with higher voltage and more amperage.
May 14th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Woo-hoo!
May 14th, 2008 at 11:11 am
This is a great site- a pdf is included that describes this person’s handmade system. It answers some of my questions about danger too.
http://mindstrain.com/
May 14th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Thanks!
May 16th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Ordered smacks booster. From research it looks like the best made product and the guy’s legit. I’m going to put it on my tacoma - should take 4+ weeks to arrive I can’t build it myself - I’m a klutz.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Best of luck to ya! Thanks for keeping us posted.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Well guys, I am waiting for a few Things to finish up my home made Smack booster. I am also building a different cell that runs on a lower DC voltage. A few observations so far. 1. When it says sharp edges on the SS Wall plates… it means it. 2. There is a breaking in period that I missed the info on with the Smack Booster. Close to a week it what the break in time appears to be. You have to slowly bring up amps to build up a layer on the plates, then all is good…unless you don’t actually own a DC power supply that isn’t you car. And third, from all that I have read, These things get HOT.
Thus the second cell that I am also working on. www.youtube.com/csirocksus This is the link to his Youtube videos. It uses a much lower voltage, Is quicker to build,install, it is presently working, And doesn’t appear to get hot. Lots to learn about. I feel like I am doing science fair projects with my kids again!
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:28 am
Joe, Charlie, any results?
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:02 am
There are a few comments (#105,108 and 115) at the original posting of this thread might interest you.
http://www.mmmfiles.com/mmm/index.php/2007-05-28/70/#comments
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:15 pm
I have little doubt that injecting a little HHO into the gasoline will help improve gas milage. From my research, if the units are properly installed, there is little chance of an explosion or fire. One thing that no one has brought up as yet is the extra water that is created in the fuel and exhaust system as a by-product of burning the HHO. Can the extra water pose any damage (ie. corosion) threat to the engine cylinders, catalytic converter, and exhaust system? While this might not be a problem in the short run, I wonder if it could cause problems in the long run. I am thinking of installing one of the systems myself, but have decided to install it on my old 95 Mazda Protege, before installing one on our late madel Honda Accord. Any insights on the possible extra water hazard by you experienced mechanics would be appreciated.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:09 am
i second the post by jim reynolds…….what about the extra moisture in the engine?
these systems seem like a good temporary viable solution to saving gas though.
a lot of these setups seem to be closed systems. what happens when you run out of water? will you be pulling any trash through the tubes into your engine? i ask this because when i messed with the a test generator i did have trash from the metal in the bowl of water.
i haven’t looked at many of these setups. i’m wondering if an inline filter is needed to not only prevent trash from getting into the engine but to also dry the gas coming from the generator so we have clean dry gas instead of a moist possibly contaminated gas.
May 23rd, 2008 at 8:37 am
Great point!
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide can be purchaced from AAA chemicals.
281-841-6987
www.aaa-chemicals.com
May 23rd, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Jim,
I have been running an HHO gen. in my truck for over a month. Got an 11% milage increase.
The tailpipe has no black (carbon), but rust is visible on the inside. It dosent look seriously rusted, but I don’t know the long term result.
Doug,
My system is closed. The gas generated is pulled into the intake snorkel by the engine vacuum. A litttle moistuer dosen’t seem to bother my engine. A “bubbler” is a good idea to trap anything besides gas between engine and HHO gen. I am going to add one, but havent yet.
May 26th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Well all, I put the generator into my truck & it is running. At present, I am putting out about 1/4 LPM. I Know that this is low compared to the Smack booster but some thoughts.
#1, no heat problem. Many of the Other booster boards are trying to figure out what to do with a high heat problem. On long trips the boster can get to 180 degrees.
#2. at this level, I want to see if I get any gas milage without having to play games with the O2 sensors on the car. It seems to me that at this lower level, the readings should be similar to what happens with our oxygenated fuels that we have to run here.
Anyway, It is installed in a 96 Chevy K1500 work truck. I average 12.5 mpg around town (most of my milage) and can get almost 14.5 on the highway. The truck is always loaded down and has Pipe & Ladders on top so it has the aerodynamics of a brick. (actually the brick may be better!)
I normally put 350+ miles on the truck each week so I will have some results later this week.
Oh, and about the moisture, I don’t see that this should be any more than normal humidity or even a rainy day. I am even going to try this on my 2003 GMC Deisel if it works!
Joe
May 27th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
In reading the experiences of others, it appears that the plate array in these HHO units do oxydize (corrode) over time. The smack booster instructions I printed off the internet suggest using several “stainless steel” switch cover plates to construct the plate array. My experience with these switch covers is that they are not stainless steel and do rust. I am thinking of cutting up an old stainless steel boiler pot (which I know does not rust) and using it to make my plate array. I am hoping that this will eliminate or reduce the amount of oxidation (corrosion) of the plate array. Before I start cutting up my pot, does anyone have any other suggestions or sources for obtaining thin sheets of stainless steel.? ( I have not checked Lowes or the other hardware stores as yet.)
May 27th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Hey all,
Just filled up my tank. The new larger surface area plates took me from an 11% increase to 17%, WOOHOO. Also added a bubbler for safety. Installed an even larger surface area set of plates, eight 2.5 X 4.5, two sets of four in parallel. Using 1/8 tsp of sodium hydroxide in 30 oz. of water, drawing about 5 amps. Will report on next fill up.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Jim,
Mcmaster Carr sells 316 stainless, but it is pricey. My friend just bought a 6 inch X 24 inch 1/16 thick piece for 50 bucks. He said a rougher finish is cheaper at their website, and rougher is actually better for HHO stuff.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Joe the jet,
What amperage are you drawing to generate .25 liters per minute?
May 28th, 2008 at 9:10 am
Ridelong, I have a 12 volt to 6 volt step down converter and it is pulling right around 10 amps. I just discovered a crack in my case so I may be producing more but it leaking out the crack. I have a new clear poly tank/lid coming tomorrow that I will install tomorrow. I should get more accurate readings then.
With the little input I have, some things I have noticed. At idle, my truck has dropped from 950 rpm down to 600 with just the booster on and it idles much moresmoothly. It appears to have more pep on acceleration but what I really want to see will be my MPG when this is really up & running.
More results by weeks end.
May 28th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Joe the jet,
Why don’t you use less electrolyte and run your cell at 12 volts? The conversion losses are not helping you. If you must run 6 volts, why not use a pulse width modulation circuit? The pwm is very efficient. I can draw one or build you one if you want me to. Good luck on your MPG increase.
May 28th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I have a two cell HHO generator with 416L stainless steel wire under construction based on WATER4Gas designs. When complete I will install it on my 1997 Ford 7.5L engine that powers a 98 Holiday Rambler RV. That configuration has no catalytic converter and lots of cool space between the radiator and the grill, so installation is fairly straight forward. I will be taking a 6500 mile test drive during August through September ‘08. A 15% improvement in gas mileage would provide a tremendous savings for a 7 mpg vehicle. My report will be filed in October ‘08.
May 29th, 2008 at 7:32 am
i have made a hydrogen generator to test with and learn from. it’s in a quart sized mason jar, has one positive plate, one negative plate and two neutral plates in between. i’m using tap water and about a teaspoon and a half of sodium hydroxide. this seems to be a pretty good mix of things. i have no idea about HHO output but it seems to be producing a large amount of bubbles no matter what the current draw is. i ran it last night for over 30 mins. it started out at 5 amps and i let it work it’s way up to 10 amps. when we got to 10 amps i noticed it starting to get hot. i could hold it in my hand so it wasn’t too hot. my question is this: “how hot can these get before there’s a danger of anything bad happening?” i do not plan on using a mason jar in my car. my plans are to get this setup working pretty good and than building a very similar unit in pvc or something that can handle the heat.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:20 am
http://www.tnhybrid.com is who I paid for a generator, and installation. I will be taking my car down there, in 2 weeks, to get it installed…
May 29th, 2008 at 11:22 am
[…] […]
May 29th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Being an antique woodworking tool buff, I have used electrolysis to remove rust from old tools (removing rust is a simplistic term but should suffice here). Back in High School we used an acidic electrolyte (a bit of hydrochloric acid, I believe, added to the water) to split the water molecules into hydrogen at one terminal and oxygen at the other capturing the gasses in inverted test tubes over the terminals. In derusting old tools we use an alkaline electrolytic solution to enhance the conductiveness of the water. The preferred additive in this process is Arm and Hammer “Wahing Soda” available in the laundry detergent area of grocery stores. I believe this is sodium carbonate. This is not carried in all parts of the country for some reason, but you can actually make your own by heating baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in your over for a specified period of time. You can find that info on web. You could also use salt, but then you also off gas chlorine which is not fun to play with. As mentioned before, these additions to your water do not break out and gas off (other than the chlorine in salt) so you need only add water to the solution to keep the original level.
I don’t believe the added water from combusting the the HHO added will likely have any more affect on the engine than what you would experience with the water already a by product of combustion without the HHO. So long as your drives are long enough to heat the entire exhaust system up, the water vapor will have no place to condense until it leave your tail pipe.
I have a concern with the added O2 making its way into the exhaust manifold and tricking the O2 sensor into enrichening the mix of fuel going in, so one of those eifi or what ever things that connect between the O2 sensor and the computer would divert that signal.
May 29th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Thanks for the information and your insight.
May 30th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Thanks so much all of you. I have been reading about these hydrogen supplement systems but wanted to hear from some people who had systems working. I’m convinced. I’m going to try to build one and install it on my old ford escort which already gets 36 mpg.
Thanks to All
May 30th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Great! Good luck, and please let us know how it works out.
May 30th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Ridelong, I may yet remove the stepdown converter but right now, I am running off of someone else’s designs. (see post#42) I want to give it a try first before I go off on my own. The 3 reasons I went with this design were 1, VERY SIMPLE (for my simple mind). 2 low to no heat problem. 3, enough HHO to boost mileage without having to tweak the o2 sensors. If this works then I’m happy, if not then on to tweaking the whole thing.
I did a fill up today and my milage went up from 12.5 to 13.2 This is not what I had hoped for but…(hopeful pause) 25 of the 200 miles had no booster on and somewhere in the first 75 miles, I cracked the case and was venting to atmosphere. so I guess it’s on to next week & See how it goes. I also have a 400 miles coming up the weekend of the 14th so that will help tell also.
May 30th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
I’m having problems with corrosion my cell literally erodes away to nothing after about 1 month and am using 304 stainless. What could be my problem? Too much baking soda pitting the surface of the stainless? Could I just use tap water and have the same result without putting something caustic into my generator? I know distiiled water won’t work by itself because it has no minerals.
May 30th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
I’m just going to throw some more stuff out there for you guys to consider that I’ve gathered from all my reading.
- The heat issue .. is due to voltage. anything over about 2v will produce nothing but heat. According to weeks of reading just about every stinking site on the net regarding HHO, it seems it is the amperage that actually drives the reaction. Consequently, I’ve ditched the Smackbooster … well, actually, I’m still building it, as it is almost complete, however, the Smack has a series plate set up in one non-sealed container. This allows a 12 volt current to exist between the positive and negative electrodes (electicity bypassing the neutral plates on the sides and bottom). I’ve actually designed my own setup that utilizes 6 separate cells, which will guarantee ~ 2v per cell. This way, I can jack the amps and get maximum production.
From reading some other blogs of guys running these units, the smaller engines tend to benefit more than the larger engines. This smacks of volume to displacement. i.e., if you want to see a decent increase in larger engine 4.0-5.0 liter, you’re going to likely need to kick out some gas). One guy who rigged up his dodge ram, put two magdrive units on the truck, thus doubling the amount of gas produced.
Electrolyte - KOH still seems to be king. However, one guy tested his unit with various things and found that citric acid eliminated the sludge buildup (however, he did not test KOH, so no comparison there) To the guy using the baking soda or the washing soda .. you are guaranteed sludge with that set up. Try vinegar in distilled water (1 cup per gallon) .. that seems to be popular, and it is what the marketed Magdrive uses.
Water and rust. These units don’t produce enough water to hurt anything, besides, the petro combustion produces sufficient heat to super heat the steam, thus insuring that most if not all exits the exaust. (I’ve always wondered if the super heated steam may be one of the contributors to the observed mpg increase).
Anyway … thought I’d throw this out for everyone who is playing with this. Unfortunately, I loaned out my jeep to relative, and won’t get it back until sometime in July, so I’ll have no test numbers until after then.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:59 am
John, from what I have read, using baking soda does just that. It eats it out. Most have gone to distilled water then used either potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide fot their electrolyte. You can find that at Lowes/HomeDepot/Ace as a drain cleaner (lye)
May 31st, 2008 at 6:03 pm
All,
My buddy has one of the fancy computers that hook to the OBD2 connector, and can tell many engine parameters. We hooked it to my truck. Watching the fuel injector on time without the hho on(2.4 ms)and then turning the hho on. The on time did not change with the hho on,(2.4 ms.). This confused me, I thought it would reduce the pulse width, thereby reducing fuel usage. My generator puts out .15 L/min. My only conclusions are, 1. The energy of the gas+efficient burning are increasing the mpg. and
2. I can increase the generation because it isn’t affecting the computer yet. Just wanted to inform you guys of this information.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Ridelong,
Thanks for the information. Here in Colorado the Govt. mandated Oxygenated fuels duing the winter months. Either 10% ethanol or (at the time) MTBE. There was a big argument over what the on-board computers would do since the fuel had more O2 in it. some dumped in more fuel and others didn’t. I am trying to find the level that my truck likes where I get the better MPG without the computer problems.
June 3rd, 2008 at 9:32 am
I am the person speaking of the corpo-rats… To all the debunker’s, and I was one, I hope you enjoy the prices at the gas pump as much as I am…
eddie batista
http://www.mindstrain.com
June 3rd, 2008 at 9:44 am
Thank you for sharing. This is a good testimonial I’m sure others are looking for.
June 4th, 2008 at 3:01 am
[…] I install my 2 hho ….. sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide can be purchaced from AAA …http://www.mmmfiles.com/mmm/index.php/2008-04-19/80/The Millennial Files ? Browns Gas/HHO Part TwoI will also post any of my findings after I install my […]
June 10th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
All,
Just filled up. Got a miserable 8% over baseline. Previous 11 and 17%, increasing plate quantitys each time. I will try to figure out why my percent increase went down so much. Will post when I have more data.
June 11th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Ridelong - did you figure out how you dropped in efficientcy?
Joe the Jet- how much of a jump are you seeing? I really want to hear your findings as we have similar vehicles. mine- 2002 4.8l Chevy Silverado 1500 2wd - pretty much base model. Not quite as heavy as yours! Please let me know how large of a “set up” you are using and the components. I checked out the smakbooster and it seems I can build it, pleas keep us all posted.
Deanster - “”I’ve actually designed my own setup that utilizes 6 separate cells, which will guarantee ~ 2v per cell. This way, I can jack the amps and get maximum production.”" … Would you be willing to explain more of your design to me?? maybe send me plans or drawings you might have???
And IF ANYONE has a vehilce similar to mine - 2002 4.8l(v8) Chevy Silverado 1500 2wd - pretty much base model.. And IF you feel so inclined- pleas share your current system specs and any advice you have.. Once i get mine going (shortly after 4th of july), I WILL DO THE SAME FOR ALL ON THIS BLOG! thansk!!!!!!!!!!
June 11th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
oops! i meant thanks.. (maybe i shouldn’t build one)??
June 12th, 2008 at 7:47 am
For those of you that built your own HHO unit:
1. How many hours did it take to build the unit?
2. How difficult was it to integrate into your car? (please specify if fuel injected or carb)
3. Where did you mount it? (please specify model of car/SUV/truck)
Thanks in advance!
June 12th, 2008 at 7:48 am
I was mining the instructions (from www.runyourcarwithwater.com) last night and came across a “warning” everyone should be aware of. It’s like a hidden cost of installing an HHO system to supplement your gas usage. In short, they recommend changing your vavles and exhaust system to use stainless steel components to prevent rust.
“The only combustion product that your Water‐hybrid powered engine contributes to the overall exhaust composition is water vapor. And we all know what water, especially hot water, does to steel. Unless your engine has already been equipped with stainless steel valves, you should look into having them installed as soon as possible to prevent valve corrosion problems (which could eventually lead to other more serious problems). Stainless steel valves are relatively inexpensive, and almost any high performance shop can install them. Your exhaust system is also vulnerable to rust. But you have more options there. If the system is old, you may choose to let it eventually rust out and replace it with a stainless steel system. Or, if the system is new, any one of the new and readily available ceramic coating processes will prevent rusting. The most practical answer to the rust problem involves developing a water compatible additive that inhibits corrosion. Apparently such an additive is very close to being marketed; a liquid with a ratio of 3 parts additive to 100 parts water.”
June 12th, 2008 at 7:57 am
For all you mechanics, how do you recommend tuning the O2 sensor to compensate for the Hydrogen injected into the fuel system?
I have a 2004 Highlander that’s all paid for and I really like - I would hate to kill it!!!
June 12th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
KajReklaw,
I think I might of figured why my efficiency dropped. On the last test run I added a bubbler to the system. I think the bubbler removed water vapor that would normally reach the engine and increase efficiency.
starbasel,
It took me about 2 1/2 hours. My buddy cut the SS plates for me but they are pretty hard to drill. Got most stuff (jar, hose fittings, SS hardware) from McMaster Carr.
Fuel injection. Was easy. Took razor knife and “drilled” a tight press fit for the check valve in the snorkel just before the butterfly. Hooked the hose from the HHO bottle to the check valve.
Mounted HHO bottle next to battery using a big hose clamp around the battery cable and the jar. Use carpet padding to protect cable and jar.
2003 Ford Ranger, 2.3 liter
June 12th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
ridelong, thanks for the info!! have you looked into adjusting your ODB setings to tell the computer what to do when the HHO is present? or are you just assuming it will figure it out?? I’ve been reading about guys who do it for their sports cars and 4×4 vehicles. They all claim to see up to 10% gains in performance, that’s with just running gas , not trying to increase mpg. Just a thought! I am really hoping you succeed and benefit greatly from all this work!! Oh- and hopefully you can share tips and pointers with us!!LOL!!! Thanks for the update!! keep it coming!!!!
June 12th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
KajReklaw,
I am an electronics engineer, but I bow to my buddy Mike’s knowlege of car computers. He has a 700 h.p. Impala that is scary nuts. He wants to do the feedback with a wideband O2 sensor because they are linear at air/fuel ratios that the normal sensors can’t function. I am waiting for him to tell me what to buy, and where to put it. Till then I’ll play with HHO and post what happens.
June 12th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Well, I’m still bummed. Filled up my truck today and got a WHOPPING 1 mpg increase over my baseline of 12.5 I realize that that is an 8% increase but I was hoping for more. We shall see as time goes by.
I have changed my set up from 6 volt/10 amp to 12 volt 20 amp while my power supply is down. My LPM is up to .75 from .25
My long hiway trip is this weekend so we shall see how that goes. Same truck but with a canoe on top. I normally get 15 mpg even with the canoe up there.
If all this doesn’t produce a greater MPG gain I may still go to a smack booster and get an *efie* to adjust my O2 sensors.
June 12th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Sorry to hear about your less-than-hoped-for results. Ridelong, got any ideas?
June 13th, 2008 at 4:49 am
Joe the Jet,
Be carefull that too much current dosen’t boil the electrolyte. The generators I use are 32 oz. and they start getting pretty hot at 5 amps and above. Seems the volume of electrolyte determines how much amperage can be pushed into the generator without boiling the electrolyte. Makes sense.
I switched to potassium hydroxide, running in my basement for 3 days, and NO rust. Put it in my truck last night, removed the water from the bubbler, and filled the tank this morning. Will post results in a couple of weeks at fill up.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Joe the Jet- sorry to hear that it wasn’t a larger increase. What type of vehilce do you have? can you give all the specs(engine size etc..)But at the same time - CONGRATULATIONS!!- you made it work and have had a gain. You’re still a BIG step ahead of most of us!!
Ridelong- will your buddy be willing to tell me where the get the parts and where to install them once he takes care of yours?? Every DIY blog i’ve read on HHO says the don’t get it right the first - second - or third times. they all have to keep chucking away at it and the all keep adding more components… ie- MAP sensors, adjusting O2 sensors, that’s when they are getting 20+ increases. If your buddy would be willing to guide me a tiny bit, I would BE GREATFUL!! I quickly looked at your previous posts, i don’t see what type of HHO set up you’re using. Would you detail it for us??? your last post says “I switched to potassium hydroxide”.. Is it available OTC?? How much of it do you need in relation to your set up and vehicle specs?? - SORRY!!- I’m a computer nerd and always ask a ton of questions!!!LOL!!!
ALL- has anyone heard of HHO causing rust in the engine? It seems the amount being used is not enough to cause rust. In smaller amounts seem to remain as vapor(steam) until it reaches the tail pipe and cooler air reverts it back to h2o. With that said if someone were to increase the amount of HHO to “replace” gas(petrol) then rust would become a HUGE factor! Other than buying ceramic coated engine parts- is there a way to protect against rust?? I’ve been looking around the net and haven’t found anything, do any of you know???
June 13th, 2008 at 9:40 am
I was mining my kit instructions and came across a “warning” everyone should be aware of. It’s like a hidden cost of installing an HHO system to supplement your gas usage. In short, they recommend changing your vavles and exhaust system to use stainless steel components to prevent rust.
quoted from www.runyourcarwithwater.com’ s instructions:
“The only combustion product that your Water‐hybrid powered engine contributes to the overall exhaust composition is water vapor. And we all know what water, especially hot water, does to steel. Unless your engine has already been equipped with stainless steel valves, you should look into having them installed as soon as possible to prevent valve corrosion problems (which could eventually lead to other more serious problems). Stainless steel valves are relatively inexpensive, and almost any high performance shop can install them. Your exhaust system is also vulnerable to rust. But you have more options there. If the system is old, you may choose to let it eventually rust out and replace it with a stainless steel system. Or, if the system is new, any one of the new and readily available ceramic coating processes will prevent rusting. The most practical answer to the rust problem involves developing a water compatible additive that inhibits corrosion. Apparently such an additive is very close to being marketed; a liquid with a ratio of 3 parts additive to 100 parts water.”
June 13th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Good luck to all of you. Thanks for sharing your results and ideas.
June 13th, 2008 at 9:47 am
I am concerned about the viability of these systems for the average non-mechanically oriented person (i.e. me). I am not the type of person to be tuning my O2 sensor and cleaning electrodes once a month. It seems that this technology requires a great deal of maintenance and frequent tuning. Is that correct?
The infusion of water derived Hydrogen into the fuel system to produce extra combustion sounds wonderful and I’ve been wondering why there aren’t shops on every street corner installing these kits. In researching the end to end picture, it seems there is a high maintenance side to this technology that makes it less attractive to people who just want to get in their car and drive.
I would very much like to hear other thoughts on this. I think this is the key topic to make HHO/Browns-gas a viable technology.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:18 am
http://www.hyfusion.com/
Anybody tried this yet? They seem to nay say all the other electrolysis type hydrogen generator units.
Thanks
June 13th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
KajReklaw,
If I get any O2 stuff, I will post.
My setup is a 32 oz. bottle from Mcmaster carr, 2 #8 screws thru the cap with sholder washers and sealed with SEAL ALL from auto zone. A 1/4 inch threaded hose barb thru the cap, also sealed. Inside the cap is two 5 inch pieces of 12 ga. wire with crimp on ring terminals on both ends. The wires run from the #8 screws to the outside conductors of six plates spaced .067 apart. The four center conductors do not connect to anything. I made two of the six plate and hooked them together with a 3/4 long #6 threaded spacer. Two 1 inch #6 plastic screws run through the plates with .067″ thick spacers between sets of plates. The plates are 316 stainless. 2.5″ wide and 4.5 tall with a .5″ wide and 1″ tall tab on top with a #6 clearance hole .15″ from the top to connect the wires. The electrolyte I am using now is approx. 28 oz. of distilled water with 1/8 teaspoon of potassium hydroxide mixed in. Sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide can be purchaced from AAA chemicals.
281-841-6987
The hose barb connects to a piece of 1/4 inch tubing thar runs to an empty plastic jar with two 1/4 hose barbs in the lid. This jar catches any electrolyte that might get splashed out of the HHO generator. The plastic jar hose barb that connects to the hho generator has a hose inside the jar running from the barb to the bottom of the jar. The other plastic jar barb is connected to a 1/4 inch tube that connects to a check valve. The other end of the check valve is inserted into the intake snorkel via a push fit hole that was cut upstream of the intake butterfly.
The wires connect to battery voltage, but MUST RUN OFF OF A KEY SWITCHED POWER CIRCUIT! If the bottle keeps generating gas when the car is not running, it will fill the engine with EXPLOSIVE hydrogen and oxygen mix! If this happens,when the car is started, something very bad will happen.
WOW that was a lot of verbage for such a simple setup.
June 13th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
starbasel,
So far everything I have tried,soduim hydroxide, baking soda has rusted and had to change electrolyte every few days. I read that if you soak the plates in potassium hydroxide and distilled water for 3 days, it will “treat” the plates. They are not supposed to rust, and generate more gas. I soaked a set in 28 oz distilled and 1/4 tsp. of potassium hydroxide for 3 days. Put them in my truck last night. Drove 8 mi to work then home 8 today. The electrolyte was clear! All other stuff I ran showed rust in 1 day. Man I hope this works, because it is a pain to change that stuff all the time.
June 13th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
ridelong -
The instructions I purchased recommend using stainless steel for the electrodes.
If you are getting rust that quickly in the unit, what do you think it’s doing to the engine components?
June 13th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
starbasel
I think it is a reaction to the electrolyte and stainless, and no electrolyte or rust gets to the engine,only h,o,and water vapor. I don’t think it is harming my engine, but I don’t have proof. My tailpipe has some rust but nothing major. Been running some form of HHO for about 2 months.
KajReklaw,
By the way my stainless plates are .030″ thick. Also most of the hardware came from McMaster Carr.
June 15th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
No way I am reading all of these comments, so if what I am saying has already been said, please, disregard it.
The “water kits” are, in effect, the same thing as a nitrous overdrive. They convert the water into H2 and O2, then inject it into the engine, giving the reaction a greater percent of oxygen to consume than atmospheric air provides.
The problem with this, is that the seperation of the water into H2 and O2 is not done within the engine (where reactions are meant to take place) and instead travels to the engine via hose or connector. For those who do not know, H2 and O2 have a VERY low activation energy, and H2 will burn if released to the atmosphere at regular weather temperatures. What does this mean? Since H2 and O2 are existing in an environment not meant to handle high temperatures and pressures, the danger of fire and explosion are extremely high. This “new technology” “wave” is really quite old, and was “squelched” before it ever really took off due to the high number of accidents during testing. If you get in a wreck with a “water kit” and even 1/100th of an ounce of that hydrogen leaks out of the “water kit”, your entire car will explode.
Overdrives were designed using N2O, nitrous oxide, due to the non-volatile nature of nitrogen and nitrous oxide. The N2O also is broken down WITHIN the engine itself and the oxygen then reacts, making it much safer to use than a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. In truth, a “kit” that simply injected compressed Oxygen would increase mileage the greatest, but, again, that would be dangerous as well, since oxygen% levels greater than atmospheric conditions are highly explosive.
By a nitrous overdrive, learn about that, use it correctly, and you will save yourself from putting yourself and your loved ones in serious danger.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Ridelong- how is it going? Is there any way I could email you? I have been doing more research and found that ALOT of people who’ve gotten the HHO system down to a routine - suggest using PWM(?) to regulate the voltage, a volt meter to monitor the voltage, and several suggest a Air/Fuel mixture guage to monitor the a/i ratio.. I’m a computer guy and a back yard mechanic (like most of us trying this) I can understand and do most things if I have a point in the right direction. Would you be willing to do that?? you seem to be getting your set up going very well and I really would like to have someone who is working through it and not someone who is trying to make a quick buck off of me. Which is what alot of these guys are doing! There’s a guy here in my town that had a booth in front of HomeDepot over the weekend. Sign said - “increase your MPG by 50%, GUARANTEED”.. I already knew what he was trying to sell, i went and asked him about it. He says he’s running one in a Silverado, one in a Ford deisel, one in Nissan truck. He charges - $1500 for his “kit”. So I started asking him what he uses for electrolytes (like i really know what i’m talking about), he says he just uses distilled water. I asked how much current is drawing on the battery from his set up, he says “it runs off of a 12 volt battery”.. This is why I need to get some pointers from someone who is doing it rather someone who is trying to make money from it.LOL!! If you wouldn’t mind that I would be deeply greatful! btw- I am a computer guy so if there’s anything I can help you with please feel free to ask!! that also goes for any one else who’s willing to take some extra time getting us newbies off the starting blocks!!
June 16th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Thanks Tapia.
KajReklaw,
I’ll help if I can. I’m not an expert, just reporting my results. I am an BSEE, but pretty ignorant in chemistry.
All
Four days on the new potassium hydroxide, no rust, YEA. Running 5.5 amps, gas generation seems to have increased since putting it in thursday. Milage looks promising, but I’m only down 1/8 of a tank @ 52 miles, so I’ll have to wait a couple of weeks to fill up to get good data.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Hi All,
Stumbled onto this thread through surfing the web after seeing something on HHO gas on tv here in New Zealand. Much of the discussion seems to be about fuel savings and the odd comment on cleaner exhaust pipes and reduced smog tests (which I presume is some sort of emissions test). Can anyone point me in the direction of some hard data on emissions reductions using this technology? Even if there’s a negligible improvement in mileage, but a reasonable reduction in pollution, isn’t it a good thing?
Conspiracy theories aside, are there any safety issues that might have been stopping car manufacturers from doing this sort of stuff? In particular I’m wondering about risks of explosion during collisions.
Am very tempted to try this out myself, just need to convince the wife that I’m not going to blow the car, or myself, up.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
I’m not sure there is any published hard data. Most comments here do address caveats, success to varying degrees and shortcomings. If you scan the thread, you’ll find most of that info in two-three paragraph postings.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:10 am
Kiwi Darryl,
If you google hho emissions you will get lots of information.
I have been running some form of hho for about 3 months. No problems so far.
One safety issue is the electrolyte, potassium hydroxide is caustic potash, but I am only using 1/4 teaspoon in my quart size hho generator.
If the gas is used as it is generated, it is not a safety issue. If you make one, make sure when the car is not running the hho gen. CAN NOT make gas, as it is explosive.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
For those who are putting in generators and not adding something to modify the O2 sensor signal, you will probably not see significant fuel savings. The reason being is that the addition of HHO gives you more complete combustion, ie cleaner burning. Standard computers aren’t programmed for this and see the signal coming from the O2 sensor as meaning the engine is running too lean, not more efficient. Therefore the computer increases the amount of fuel to compensate. If you are seeing a 1mpg increase in mileage, the vehicle is actually quite capable of much higher readings, but the computer is throwing in more fuel to make the O2 sensor happy.
Most modifications shown on the web simply add 1 or 2 millivolts to the sensor signal so the computer doesn’t increase the fuel flow. There are prebuilt units you can buy, or if you’re electronically inclined plenty of plans to build ones. One of the best designs I’ve found was at http://hydrogengarage.com/home.html. If you look under their Plans section, chapter 10 has a number of design ideas for vehicle installation.
The 2nd area of concern is to those who are not running a bubbler. A bubbler serves two very important roles in a vehicle installation. First it removes any residue from the electrolyte. As the bubble travel through residue from the electrolysis is left behind in the water so the gas is cleaner and more suitable as Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide is very harmful to an engine.
The second and more important reason for a bubbler is it acts as a flash back protector. If your car were to backfire and ignite the hydroxide in the supply hose, without a bubbler it will flash back right into the generator. The could destroy your generator, or even possibly cause a small explosion if you have no pressure relief set-up, like a pop-off cap. Bubbler’s typically have easily removable caps, so if a flashback does occur, it will only ignite the gas from the intake to the bubbler, and blowing the cap off that will not cause an explosion or any real damage. Worse case scenario, its a lot cheaper to replace a bubbler than the HHO generator. Bubblers just use regular tap water, or even windshield washer fluid if you’re in cold climate.
For those concerned about huge explosions if you have an accident it really isn’t a concern. The reason being is that most HHO generators discussed here do not generate great quantities of hydroxide, and what they do generate gets used very quickly by the engine as its being generated. The most gas present is whats in the generator itself, plus whats in the supply lines to the engine. Fire is possible, but hydroxide burns so fast the entire supply would be burnt in less than a second. As long as proper safety measures have been taken, such as using a bubbler and pressure relief systems, the possibility of an explosion is extremely small. You are more in danger from the 10 or 15 gallons of gasoline you’re usually carrying around in the fuel tank than the liter or so worth of hydroxide gas present at any given time.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
If I understand their product, Hydrogen Hybrid Tech (http://www.hydrogenht.com/) seems to be building a fuel injection system designed for hydrogen infusion. I think it is the same basic technology as we’ve been discussing, but with a fuel injection system designed for hydrogen infusion.
June 19th, 2008 at 7:57 am
ridelong
How much mpg improvement are you seeing?
Had you considered switching to copper electrodes to avoid the rust factor?
June 19th, 2008 at 10:35 am
is anyone modifying their O2 sensor? This seems “required” for full benefit on newer cars.
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/EfieDescribed.html
I love the discussion! Thanks for the feedback.
(thinking about adding to my Ford with 460 to pull the trailer)
June 19th, 2008 at 11:08 am
starbasel,
The best so far is 17%.
Presently running a 12 plate setup with potassium hydroxide, only have 103 miles on the tank (gas gauge just below 3/4), but looks very promising, will report when I fill up.
I don’t think copper would last. I have been running 317 stainless with potassium hydroxide for a week now, NO RUST at all!!! Totally clear. Did have to add about an ounce of distilled water.
I haven’t modified any electronics yet. Wanted to solve rust/electrolyte problem first, and get a percent increase number from that. My motorhead friend thinks I need to change out the computer at $600. Not willing to shell out that much.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I’m rooting for you ridelong! I’m not willing to risk my Highlander for this tech until I hear lots more positive results! I’m opting for a 60% driving reduction by switching to a park & ride light rail commute.
June 20th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
If anyone thinks they will get remarkable results without adjusting the fuel management/emissions system or carburator you are set for a big bummer. In many cases you may see a loss in efficency without intervention.
Keep working on them guys.
John Galt lives!
June 20th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
You may want to check out another strand of this thread at www.mmmfiles.com/mmm for comments on issues which you are addressing.
June 21st, 2008 at 3:53 pm
All,
Just turned 200 mi on odometer, gas gauge is right at 1/2. Looks promising.
Running two sets of 6 plates 2.5 X 4.5 in.,4 neutral plates in both sets. 30 oz. distilled with 1/4 tsp. of potassium hydroxide.
8 days, no rust.
June 21st, 2008 at 4:41 pm
That’s what I’m talking ’bout!!! Congratulations.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Hello
I have been reading the comments and I like all of them. I make and install HHO systems at a great price. I also have them on my truck and car. The gains are great and more then worth the price and maintenance. I have been working on cars for about 20 years. I also am a aircraft technician and know that this technology has been around a long time. It just has not been need or wanted until now with the price of gas being so high. It does work if you know what to buy and how to install and adjust the system. Be careful where you buy or get your info to make the system from. A few of the people sell the systems out there just trying to make money. So all I have to say is ask people how they handle the computer issue, the heat and the power to run the system. This is the area were most manufactures and installer have issue with. I address the issue with the computer the MAP or MAF sensor on car 1996 and new. On cars 1995 or older I use the O2 sensor to handle the problem with the computer. As far as the heat I use sold stainless steel rods so they can handle the heat. The system is also wired to your car run circiut. Also my systems include up to four other fuel saving components. With all of these things used together and installed correctly. You will get at great increase in MPG. If you have any questions you can go to my web site cuttingedgewater4gas.com
June 26th, 2008 at 8:48 am
(*****Tapia- forgive me if this oversteps the boundaries of this blog, if it does then please remove it with my most humble appology to the forum*****)
TO ANYONE WHO SEES LARRY’S POST- I just looked at your website and your products page (as I do with most sites sinc eI am really trying to save money.) YOU ARE CHARGIN $75 FOR A GLASS MASON JAR!! All the “products you show are COMPLETE COPIES of the “water4gas” plans. For anyone who is just starting out on the HHO “quest” PLEASE BE AWARE- There are several REPUTABLE HHO generator producers out there. You need only to read this blog and check them out for yourself. Please gurad you money carefully, read all material OBJECTIVELY but with a conservative mind. Do the math on the any components you find listed on any web site “selling” you HHO- $75 for a glass jar is totally unacceptable - regardless of the incredible claims the “reseller” is claiming. If you are new and want to buy a glass mason jar that will produce HHO, just ask any of us who are trying to perfect our systems. I’m not against anyone making money or producing something that is worth the money AS LONG AS IT WORKS!! Many people are trying to come up with a great solution to this conecpt of HHO and are working hard to produce results that can be reproduced in ANY vehicle. $45 for a brass colored fitting that you can buy at Home Depot for $10 is OUTRAGEOUS!! Please be sensible.. and if you have any questions about ANY PRODUCT you see on the internet, FEEL FREE TO ASK QUESTIONS FROM THOSE OF US who are NOT trying to sell you anything!! btw- if you contact Tapia, he can arrange for private communication between people on this forum.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Thanks for the heads up on this. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to check out all websites mentioned on this site. More or less, I count on you guys to do your own research, and am grateful to hear your experiences and opinions.
In thinking about it, I had heard something about a few water-for-fuel sites other webmasters were blocking. My position is unless I learn a site is virus infested, or a comment is insulting, offensive and non-productive, I try not to censor.
BTW, I am a huge proponent of Internet Freedom, previously known as net neutrality. If you would like to continue to use and the enjoy the internet as you have on this site (and many others) please contact your Representive in Congress and urge him/her to support the Internet Freedom Act 2008 (HR5353), sponsored by Ed Markey (D-Mass) and Chip Pickering (R-Miss). Otherwise the telecom companies will (not may) start calling the shots about what is accessible and the net will probably end up looking like your local cable television lineup.
June 27th, 2008 at 8:50 am
All,
Finally filled up. Got 29.7% increase, YAHOO. 10.23 gallons at 302.5 miles.
Baseline milage was 22.76 mi/gal. Today’s milage is 29.52 mi/gal.
Using 1 quart jar, distilled water with 1/4 tsp potassium hydroxide. Two sets of 6, 316 stainless plates 2.5 X 4.5 inch. 1 positive, 1 negative, 4 neutral plates. Spaced 0.068 inch. Draw about 4-5 amps.
Putting one in a Toyota saturday. Will report.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Congratulations!!! Woo hoo!!! Also thank you so much for all the detailed information which others can use (for free!).
June 27th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
All,
Forgot to report I got the 29.7% without a bubbler. I removed the water and used it as a catch basin in case the electrolyte got into the tubing.
June 28th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
This is to kajreklaw. The units I make are made very well. Yes they might be made from a mason jar(which by the way can go from extreme heat to extreme cool with out breaking). They do not have the over heating problem that over 2/3 the systems out there are having. Also they are a great size and see through. Seeing you know everything. You should know that it is very important to see what is going on inside the jar. Some may ask why this is? It helps in know how the sytem is work and how it is producing. Also it helps to see when the rods might need to be cleaned. The rods in the jars are made using the best stainless steel hardware you can buy. Not from a hardware store but from some of the best aircraft hardware manufactured. Also the fuel heater that you say you know I got for Lowes is not true. It is made also from high grade brass material use on aircraft also. I use the best fittings for my system. Yes I did get some of my info. from water4gas but I also got just as much info from reading all I could about the subject. I did not get on here and but down anyones system or thoughts like you did mine. I am sellling these systems at a good price compared to most. Just because it is not made like the one you make does not make it bad. So do not get on here and say that if you buy my system you are blowing your money. This system has been install on over 35 cars and is working great on 98%. The 2% that did not work for I returned there money no questions ask. Also one of the people that returned the system found out that they had a cracked intake. He got it repaired and then re-order and now it is working great. Also my system works on long trips and well on short everyday driving. I also have tech. support to help the people that buy my system. I help people who also just call or email me and ask for some help. My web site is not a scam and I am not a scam. Maybe the people on here should be more worried about some like you. I person who thinks there way is the only any. Every thing else is a scam and look out he is out to get you. The things I calm and say on me site are true. So if you want to see my site it is www.cuttingedgewater4gas.com. I will say this the pictures are not that great. I am working on them and will have new ones soon. Also there are somethings that I might modify a little. If you buy a system from my site and I and I modify the system so it works better. Or make it easier to service I will send them to you for free. All I ask it that you send the old items back. If my site and system was junk would I make an offer like that?
ALso if I was out just to take peoples money would I say and do that? I am sorry for having to but a post on this site like this. Bu t I was not going to just site here and take what this person said about me and my system. Also Larry is my real name not a screnn name. I stand be hind what I say and do. Thank you for your time
June 29th, 2008 at 8:26 am
One more thing on the remarks that kajreklan said about my price. He did not include that the price includes next day shipping on all products. Which adds at the least $15.00 to each item. Once again the shipping is included.
I did mean what I said in my first remark on here. There is alot of good ideas and thoughts on this site.
All I was saying is ask a few questions and keep a look out. When you ask a few questions, you will know if they know what they are talking about. Also it will let you know why they used what they did to build the system or product.
thank you
Larry
June 30th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Larry, I hope you are successful in all your endeavors! You’re right: There is a alot of great info on this site as well as several others. Please feel free to share ANY of your experience with HHO, from construction - testing - materials - configuration.
The person who had the cracked intake- how did the hho react, how did the engine react?? Do you know where it was cracked or at least was it accessible??
June 30th, 2008 at 10:56 am
OH btw- my name is Jack. No hard feelings please!
June 30th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Glad to see you guys worked this out. Reinstills my faith in the value of true discussion.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I am not sure how he found the crack. He just told me that it was cracked and fixed it. I did not ask that many questions. The hho system did not give any results when installed. So after helping him over the phone with no help. He asked for his money back so I did and he returned the product. A few weeks after he called me and told me what he had, said it was fixed and that he wanted to try the system again. This time it worked good. He is getting about a 35% fuel increase.
Larry
July 3rd, 2008 at 1:04 am
I have a frend up here who owns several NAPA Auto Parts Stores. Last year he went to a NAPA conference back east someplace. During one of the meetings, automotive electrical systems became one of the topics. The gist of what he told me is this: Automotive computer systems are becoming so complicated and demanding on electrical systems that cars and light trucks in the near future will have a 36 or 72 volt system. The average car or light truck right now takes just over an hour to shut down all of the on-board computer sensors once the key is turned off. Now, with that much voltage available can you imagine how much easier it would be to produce HHO gas ! Right now some cars have as many as 6 computer system on them. My truck has 2 and it’s a 2001 Dodge. The way I see it, there are only 2 problems in the way of HHO gas. Available voltage and getting around the emission control computer system. I can see a vehicle that runs on HHO gas alone if the government would just get out of the way.
July 3rd, 2008 at 10:58 am
Hi all.
Has anyone out there added an o2 extender? If so how did it do? I think I’m going to try one. My hho is giving me 29.7% increase, would love to get 50% or better.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:57 am
ridelong:
I had one but gave it to a frend who added it to his system. Diden’t work well at all. What kind of vehicle is your system installed on?
July 5th, 2008 at 3:12 am
Has anyone put one of these on a 2001 Dodge 1500 4×4 with a 5.2L gas engine.
I have one with a 5 speed trans. As is I get 14.7 in town and 22.3 on the hwy. I would love to get better than this. I just started adding 2oz of acetone to
every 10 gal of gas I put in the tank.
It works but I don’t know how well yet.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Jimboo:
I have a 2003 Ranger 2.3 liter.
Built my generator. I use 1 quart jar, 12 plates .030 thick, 2.5 wide by 4.5 high 316 ss. Two sets of 6 in parallel. 0.067 spacing. Electrolyte is distilled water with 1/4 tsp. potassium hydroxide.
Put one in my wifes 1996 Taurus this morning.
July 7th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Jimboo55 I have a 2002 dodge ram extended cab 4X4 with a 5.9l engine. The system I have is a three cell hydrogen generator system with a water vaporizer, PCV enhancer and MAP enhancer. I MPG went up about 30-35%. It was almost 50% but I have been doing some changes to things and have lost a little. I am going to move up to a six cell system. MPG before was 12.6 city and 15.5 highway. Now I get 18 city and 19.7 highway. When I add the extra cells I am not sure if I will get more MPG but I do know that the water will last longer between refills. I will have some pictures the system installed on my truck soon. The site is www.cuttingedgewater4gas.com. So the answer your questions is yes it will work. My system is just one type so I hope you get better MPG with the system you decide to use.
July 8th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Larry:
5.9L I think is a 360 cid engine. Is that correct? 12.6 city and 15.5 Hwy, you must have an Automatic Trans. Is that engine an EFI type and where is the MAP sensor located?
July 9th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Jimboo55
Yes my truck has a 360 with automatic trnas and EFI. The MAP sensor is on the forward part of the throttle body. It has three wires on it. The Green wire is the wire that goes fromt the MAP to the computer. Hope that helps out. It if let me know.
Larry
July 10th, 2008 at 5:39 am
All:
Reporting on the 12 plate I installed on the Toyota Tacoma. First tank data was a loss of 3%. I am at a loss to explain. Will report when I get more info..
July 10th, 2008 at 9:53 am
So sorry to hear that. Does Comment #101 address this? Larry & Kajreklaw, got any ideas?
July 10th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Hello All
I am new to HHO and this blog. Does anyone know of how a flex engine might behave on HHO?
July 11th, 2008 at 12:59 am
My O2 sensor generates a signal which ranges from 0 to 1 volt. To get the engine to run lean, I add 200 mV to 500 mV in series with the O2 sensor. When set at 400 mV, the signal to the computer ranges from 400 mV to 1.4 volts. The “proof” is that when idling, the tach shows the engine speed to decrease from about 1000 rpm (no voltage added) to about 800 rpm (400 mV added). The reason for this post is to highlight that 200 to 400 mV of additional voltage seems needed (for my engine) to make it run lean. I have read other posts which suggest 1 mV to 2 mV and I suspect these reports may mean .1 V to .2 V. I hope this info is helpful to readers who have fuel injection systems and need to modify the signal sent to the computer from the O2 sensor. Best Regards, Howard
July 12th, 2008 at 1:56 am
Questions to all:
1.What volume of HHO would I need to get good results with 96 Corolla 1.8 liter?
2. I have an one quart mason jar electolyzer with two (alledged) Stainless Steel plates–one for negative and one for the positive poles. I filled it 3/4 full of distilled water and added 3/4 of a teaspoon of Sodium Hydroxide. After about 45 min of run time, output was 183 ml/minute. It was getting hotter and hotter. The water boiled at about 52 minutes run time. I shut it down. The wires were getting hot also and especially the ten amp fuse–which surprisingly did not blow out… Any comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks!
July 13th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
To Mark
The system will work the same on a flex fuel car or truck.
July 13th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Dennis
It sounds like you have to much resistance with your system. You do not have a short or your fuse would blow. Also check to see how much voltage you are drawing with your cell. Then check the resistance of your cell also. I would also check to make sure you have a good ground for your cell. I hope this will help you with your problem.
Larry
July 13th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Ridelong
Sounds like you are using to much voltage and amps. Now your alternater is over loaded and causing your engine to work harder now. You might have reach your limit with your cell design.
Larry
July 13th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Dennis,
I got an 17% increase in my 2003 ranger 2.3 liter making 0.15 liters/min. My last iteration got me 30%, but I haven’t checked the volume. The 30% is a quart jar, two sets of 6, 316 ss, 4.5 inch tall X 2.5 inch wide, setup +nnnn-, 0.067 spacing. About 30 oz of distilled with 1/4 tsp of potassium hydroxide. Potassium hydroxide puts out almost NO rust. I put a new set in and have put 327 miles on this tank, the electrolyte is clear! Will fill up tonight and report.
Larry:
The car I reported not getting any gains is drawing 1.8 amps. It isn’t mine. It is a toyota tacoma.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
All;
Just filled up. 343.2 mi/11.142 gal. 30.8 mi/gal.. 37.5% increase! Yahoo!!! The setup is the same one I reported 29.7%. The stuff I read said the plates using potassium hydroxide would do that, increase gas generation with time.
Unless someone asks, I’m going to stop reporting, I made it. But I will still play with it.
Larry,
Just so you know, you can’t have too much voltage, it is whatever your alternator is putting out, unless you are using a pwm, Ipump, or anything that changes the voltage from the battery to your hho gen.
July 13th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
I am new to this site, just found it. I’m interested in how to build, a Dual mapp sensor enhancer. Have built generater, for water system. Have not seen mpg. increase. Would appreciate any info. Thanks. P.S. enjoying this site.
July 14th, 2008 at 9:54 am
To poor mans way
I have the prints for a dual MAP enhancer if you go to my site and email me I will give them to you for free. Also will give you the part numbers of what to buy and where you can get them.
Larry
www.cuttingedgewater4gas.com
July 14th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Ride along
What I meant is yo can have to much votlage for the system you are using. Also if yo have a bad ground source this will cause what you have. This is called ohms law.
Not trying to be a kerk just let you know what I meant.
Good luck and hope it all keeps working great.
Larry
July 14th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Congratulations Ridelong, and thanks for keeping us posted. You are a great inspiration.
July 17th, 2008 at 2:55 am
Dennis Post #135
Note, Total resistance is less than the resistance of any one leg. In other words, add a second generator. It will lessen the heat because resistance will go down if the current goes over 2 separate paths.
July 20th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Hey all, I’m new here, but I have been studying like crazy all over the net for a long time on this issue. I thought it was time I started sharing my views and asking some questions.
First question, does anyone know how much hydroxy actually needs produced to run on IC engine without any gasoline at all? Reason I ask is this. Everyone has sorta went with just using hydroxy to hybrid their vehicles. I’m assuming due to the problem of using more electricity to create it than can be produced from the byproduct of burning it.
My question is this. Can the amount of extra electricity needed to allow this process to happen be harnessed by using the rotation of the tires to generate more? I dont know, like an alternator works, or even a magneto firing system on a lawnmower engine. Just a system that turns rotation into current, or even an electric motor hooked in reverse.
My thought is that yes it would create a drag and more resistence that would have to be overcame, but if the system was set up using a leveling switch so it only generated energy when the vehicle was rolling downhill, couldn’t that in theory create a free energy by using the weight of the vehicle, momentum, and gravity to rotate the tires instead of the energy from burning the hydroxy?
Just a theory, I’ve not seen any info on that idea. What do you all think? Could this idea help bridge the gap and maybe allow a fully selfcontained system with no gasoline?
July 20th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Sorry, got another question. Everyone seems to be talking about using the air intake to introduce the hydroxy to the system. Is there some reason you could not introduce it directly into the fuel line using some sort of T connector that would obviously need set so you did not end up with a gas tank full of hydroxy. But can it be done in this manner? Would it cut down on how much gasoline is even introduced into the system without other modifications tryint to trick the electronics systems?
I am working on my first cell, trying to combine knowledge of the 5 billion other attempts I’m seeing out there now, so I’m having a hard time making up my mind which way to go. I have a 1992 ford escort fuel injected. Should be a great project car. Overdrive is out in the transmission and I only get about 20mpg on the highway due to it. I’m thinking I should get over 25 normally I would think or better. I definately cant see a problem experimenting on this car.
Any help is appreciated with my theories, I definately do not claim to be a scientist, my brain just never stops!
July 22nd, 2008 at 3:35 pm
I am not sure if using your wheels to make power is worth it. Do to the amount of engergy that will be needed to make the energy that can be used. It might just be a wash.
As far as adding the hydrogen to the fuel line instead of the intake airflow. I know some people have tried it and had no luck. One person had some luck but it cost about $700.00 to make it work. The problem was the pressure of the fuel and stoping it from back feeding into the hydrogen cell. Also you would need to get the hydrogen to a high pressure to supply the fuel in the line without the fuel once again back feeding. Also no you is sure how the fuel injectors will last or handle the hydrogen being added to them in that way.
If you come up with a good way keep us posted. Would like to know what you come up with.
July 27th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Just want to throw this out there, as I have already posted on the other thread letting everyone know what type of HHO we were going to use. One tidbit I did pick up when my husband and the man were talking was you can’t use baking soda or things of that nature because they’re corrosive. I see ridelong had a few of those issues as well. What I can tell you is the man is using distilled vinaegar to “fix” this problem. I don’t know much about it, to be honest, but the husband does. Will let you know how it goes for us next week.
July 27th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Thanks, and good luck! Look forward to hearing from you.
July 30th, 2008 at 5:11 am
Anyone have a circuit to allow a tacho signal to drive a pwm so the hho produced increases with engine speed - thereby matching the engines need for hydroxy?
July 30th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
I will have some comments to post soon as I am experimenting with this. I find this site very helpful. Thanks for the great data.
July 30th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Has anyone checked into the hydroreactors.com web site? Seems to be a good price. Other items look interesting
August 1st, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Hello,
I’ve been researching the HHO booster phenom intensely for the past several weeks. I’ve noticed that those who actually build or buy one and install it in their vehicle, the ones that get the most gains, are doing so on smaller engines. below 4 liters.
I’ve also noticed that the majority of boosters being built are putting out around 1 to 1.5 liters a minute at the most. I’ve built a rather large one and am getting somewhere over 2 liters a minute. Once I get a better testing station setup I’ll know more precisely. I will be installing it in a 2001 Chevrolet extended cab Silverado with an automatic transmission and a 4.8 liter engine. 2wd also.
I have dual 14 plate cells at 5 in by 3 in in size mounted inside it and I’m using KOH as the electrolyte catalyst.
I’m guessing the reason the larger vehicles are not seeing much improvement is because of a volume deficiency. Double the volume of the engine with the same size booster the ones with smaller engines are using.
I will be offsetting my O2 sensors via the sparkplug anti-fouler method and will be manipulating the MAF input to the ECU for further control.
If it works as I hope, I will then institute safety measures such as a relay energized by something such as the oil pressure switch with a toggle switch for backup etc…
And as previously mentioned, using baking soda is not a good idea. It makes carbon dioxide which is not good.
Sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, distilled vinegar are good. I’ve noticed that the KOH (potassium hydroxide) gives the most bang for the buck and is extremely clean.
As far as feeding the Hydrogen and Oxygen gas into the engine, it is gaseous until combustion , toward the end of that phase some of it recombines and becomes super heated steam and absorbs some of the heat from the combustion chamber and is expelled out the exhaust. No corrosion or rust issues. Even without the HHO we get moisture in our exhaust systems and they are made from a low grade stainless to help prevent rusting anyways.
Most people will notice their engine actually runs somewhat cooler with the HHO added.
August 2nd, 2008 at 12:28 am
OOps, Sorry, It is salt that breaks down into chlorine and The baking soda breaks down into carbon dioxide. Neither of which are good.
August 3rd, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Yes it is true that most of the people on the site are installing the sytem on smaller engines. I know of a lot of people that have installed system on larger engines and have had a great deal of increase. The thing to remember when you are only getting 10 to 12 MPG a small increase is a lot but does not look good on a web site. So most sells that have web site that post results do not list them on there site. It looks better the show a small engine with a bigger gain. Also the reason why alot of web sites say to use pure baking soda as there first choice is because it is not a hazardous meterial and can be purchase anywere anytime. Yes it is not the best thing to use because of the corrosion and other issue but it sure is easier to get your hands on.
I one question for Steven S. what is the sparkplug anti foiler method. I have not heard of that. Also does it work good when you have a MAF instead of a MAP?
thank you
Larry
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:26 pm
The sparkplug anti-fouler method is where you buy two 18mm anti-foulers for ordinary sparkplugs. They are available in the help section of most auto parts stores. You drill the end of one of them out to 1/2 inch and screw your O2 sensor into it then screw that assembly into the remaining anti-fouler and reinstall it in the manifold. This will be necessary for each sensor you have before the catalytic converter. It’s a less invasive solution for taking care of the O2 sensor picking up the extra oxygen that will be in the exhaust from the HHO. It works for some and not for others. I’m hoping it works for me. It doesn’t matter whether you have a map or maf sensor with it.
I have a MAF sensor and for additional manipulation of the fuel mixture I’ll be installing a circuit to control that as well.
August 3rd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
The sparkplug anti-fouler method is where you buy two 18mm anti-foulers for ordinary sparkplugs. They are available in the help section of most auto parts stores. You drill the end of one of them out to 1/2 inch and screw your O2 sensor into it then screw that assembly into the remaining anti-fouler and reinstall it in the manifold. This will be necessary for each sensor you have before the catalytic converter. It’s a less invasive solution for taking care of the O2 sensor picking up the extra oxygen that will be in the exhaust from the HHO. It works for some and not for others. I’m hoping it works for me. It doesn’t matter whether you have a map or maf sensor with it.
I have a MAF sensor and for additional manipulation of the fuel mixture I’ll be installing a circuit to control that as well.
Also, From what I understand, with a MAF sensor, when it gets cold some of the gains in mpg will be lost because of the increased density and colder temperature of the air. Thus requiring the signal to be manipulated to compensate for it.
August 4th, 2008 at 11:13 am
thanks for the info.
Larry
August 11th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Hey guys, I was hoping to find some answers here. I built a simple kit from looking at the watertogas.com website and copying their setup (mainly because it was the easiest I could find). Even though it has an electrolyzer(sp) they show that you “charge” the water then put that charged water and hook it up to the intake manifold. If you look at the website you can see an example of what it is. Now I hooked it up to my truck and the damn thing seemed to work. I have a f150 5.4 motor with an edge computer chip. I already get 20 mpgs when going 55-60. I took a test run and hand calculated 28.5 MPGs on my trial run of 80 miles.
My truck forum wasn’t to helpful, they are telling me that I am running my truck lean, and I am on my way to detroying the motor. They do not believe my gains and think I am making things up. I have un-hooked it until I get some more information. I am headed on a 1300 mile round trip this weekend with my truck and would really like to use it, I just want to make sure I am not going to ruin anything on my new truck.
I would like to know a little bit more about my truck running lean and things I should look for (cylinder head temps going up, oil temp going up, etc..) Also I can’t imagine there would be enough water vapor or steam in the engine to hurt it. They were telling me that steam is a 1000x more space than a drop of water and that my motor cannot handle it. what is happening inside my motor? and how can a mason’s jar that bubbles water make my truck run smoother (which it did) and get much better milage? Any help to put my mind at ease would be great. I am not a chemist and have no idea how these work or why people are scared to try it.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Hello Bill R.
Ok first thing first that is great on the MPG increase. Also I am not sure who is telling you the things on the truck forum. Which forum is it. I would like to get on there and read some of the things they are saying about HHO boosters. If have the water4gas system on my truck and car. I sell a system that is base off of the water4gas system. If you set up the system the way they tell you at water4gas then you are not running your truck to lean. The best way to check this is to check the temp of your engine. Another good way is when you start off do you feel any hesitation if not then you are good. Also as far as the water vapor verse water in your engine stuff. They truely do not know how the system works.
The system it not going to make your engine blow up. The reason your engine runs smoother is because it is running more efficent. The system helps your engine burn the fuel it using better which gives you a better fuel burn and more power and less waste. You can also goto my web site www.cuttingedgewater4gas.com and check out what is on there. I am sure that it will help you understand how the system you have installed works. You can also email me from the site also.
Good Luck
Larry
August 11th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
ok, here is the link, I think it would be nice to get some different opionions from both sides. I posted one of their responces.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/753686-anyone-used-one-of-these-up-to-50-more-mpg-6.html
The amount of hydrogen/oxygen produced in that video is laughable. These two guys when they explained how water is cracked were completely off kilter and did not explain the process correctly. A truck pulls in hundreds of CFM of air per minute. That device is likely to produce maybe a quarter to half CFM per minute.
Sounds like the primary function (actually, only real function) is water injection directly into the engine, not any real usuable amount of hydrogen. Now here’s the interesting thing… water injection does work because it cools the intake charge significantly. They’ve been using this technique since WWII on fighter planes.
Here’s the catch and its a big one: you’re slowly destroying your engine by having a device like this run all the time. Do a search on piston wash and you’ll find out what I mean. On the fighter planes it was used only in emergencies. On cars, generally performance cars with superchargers, proper systems cost hundreds of dollars and have controllers to kick in only at WOT and also add methanol to the intake stream to prevent the intake charge from being too lean.
Psuedo science always has a catch. I will say those to old fellas have the science of ripping people off perfected.
August 12th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
You will find all kind of people saying all kind of things. The is interresting to see what people think they know. At least one this person is kind of correct on the water injection. The one thing is that thisis not water injection it is a water vapor and not a lot of it. Also the hydrogen does not replace the place of gas. It only helps it burn better and cleaner. That is what most people do not understand that keep say your engine is running to lean. There are correct if hyou did not have a system like the hydrogen cell it would be running to lean.
Have to had a chance to go my site and if so did it help you at all. I am not trying to sell you anything just hope it helped.
Larry
August 12th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I have seen folks mentioning installing an enhancer on the MAF sensor. This is much harder to do than the MAP sensor. HOW DO you determine out of 3 wires going to the computer which is the signal wire???? I have a wire diagram but it just shows three wires all going to the computer they are labeled VG, E2G, THA. NO where does it tell me which is the signal wire….
I figure there must be a way to figure out which is the signal wire.
Any help would be great!!!
August 14th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
If you pierce the insulation on the wires with the probe of a multimeter so that the probe is touching the wire, have the other probe grounded to the body or the negative battery terminal, one of the wires will read zero volts, the other will read 12 to 14 volts depending on if the engine is running or not and the last one will have a voltage that changes as the air flow through the sensor changes. That one is the signal wire back to the ECU.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
I’m a big doubter on these boosters, but have been doing a lot of testing on a number of different ones I’ve built including the 11 plate system, and several made from micro corrugated stainless. My latest is made from a 29″ tall by 10″ diameter stainless steel pool filter. For now the case is acting as the _ plate and the + is an 8 inch stainless steel mixing bowl. I’m documenting all of my tests and the main problem I’ve had with all of them is water boiling after about an hour of running them. I won’t have that problem with the big boy because it holds up to 10 gallons of water (I run it with 5) and currently have it running with 1.25 teaspoons of baking soda. It pulls 30 amps at that and still only puts out .4 liters per minute. I find it amazing that some of the people selling kits claim to get i liter per minute with 10 amps and no over heating! Anyway if you want to check out my test or keep up with them you can find them at http://tffn.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17087 as read only. Its a classic car site so no need to join to give your view. I’ll check back here fairly often.
August 20th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Dave Smith;
If you split up the load (add a second or third) HHO generator in parrallel, you will use less current and create less heat. Total resistance is less than the resistance of any one leg.
August 21st, 2008 at 3:30 pm
I’d already mentioned in my tests that multiple units could be an answer, but… The below is a part from my last test published on my site. You can see the results of Page 2 of my tests at the link below.
“The argument of using several units in series as far as electrical connection and gas output is a viable one as far as lowering the amps per unit and output being the same as one unit pulling the combined load of the several. Problem is that most cars just don’t have the room for a number of them especially if they are run in front of the radiator (without cutting down on the air going through the radiator.) If there is even room for that.”
http://tffn.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17087&p=114687#p114687
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I just did another test today using Lye instead of soda. The results were half as much HHO put out as with using soda with about the same amps. It also appeared to put out about twice as much red sludge from using tap water. I’ll stick with soda from now on. Salt puts out chlorine instead of oxygen so that’s out.
September 1st, 2008 at 2:02 am
I used this technology in the Army when it was a lil more hush hush back in 1994. I currently have it installed in my completely stock Chevy Silverado ext cab 2002 and went from 13 mpgs to 21 mpgs with one HHO generator and 2 O2 sensor extendors. I decided to make them and install them too sharing this wonderful gift big brother has known about for many, many years. Im in Inland Empire Ca. Anyone interested let me know. Seeing is believing and it will convince you too. Ive installed it many other cars and trucks too. Only car that has NOT seen major mpg gains is the honda element. Anyone can check out my ad on craigslist CA. Inland Empire area under automotive services. Type in HHO in the search box. I’d love to answer some of your prayers and can ship the HHO generator device to you if you pay shipping. Or FULLY install one for you if your ever in this area.
GO GREEN !!
kinghybrid@gmail.com
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:23 am
I have heard that citric acid may work better and is cleaner than baking soda. Can anyone tell me how many amps is required to produce HHO Gas?
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:48 pm
wow. just wow. now i know why denny gets away with his BS claims. there are so many willing to believe it.
it’s so simple people. electrolysis takes more energy to produce the gas than the energy the gas contains. thus the energy it takes to spin your alternator is far far far more than youll ever see in power returned by burning the hydrogen, or hho, or brown gas, or whatever you want to call it. period.
and aren’t all of you forgetting that klein claimed his next car would run entirely on this gas? ie, not as a fuel additive.
this scam is almost older than cars themselves, and yet in the “information age” people want it to work so badly theyll still deceive themselves into believing. even fox news runs stories on it. this is worse than the stupid air powered car that will never go further than a few miles, yet the inventor continues to claim it’s going to do over 100. (hint- thermodynamics still havent changed).
please tell me what else you want to believe badly, and i’ll invent a “solution” you can buy. why look i already have it! i swear it works. of course, i gotta keep it on the down-low, there’s a big oil spy behind that bush over there.
September 4th, 2008 at 4:43 am
boomhauer,
It’s not that simple. The HHO causes the fuel to burn more completely, increasing the energy output.
I’ve been running HHO for 6 months. Increase in mpg is 37%. My tailpipe is completely clean, NO carbon.
Will HHO replace gas….NO.
Will it make the gas burn completely…YES.
If you don’t try it, don’t talk.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:25 am
This is to everyone. Do not let people like boomhauer get yo upset or mad. There are a lot of people out there that like to pay $4.00 for gas and will not beleave anything other then what they want to. I was on a site for a while that was for engineers. On this site they were all saying the same thing that boomhauer is saying. So I offered to give the two people with the most negative comments a free kit to install and let me know how it worked. Also
offered to install the system if they would write a report on how it worked. Both of them said no way. I ask why they both said it just does not work and that is that. So as you can see some people will not beleave anything and do not want to. The other thing I have found from looking and write on different site is there are a lot of people on these site that are paid to write negative comments and that is there job. Then when you ask them if they are paid to say what they are writing you never hear from them again. It is a crazy world out there and people and companys with a lot of money invested in gas and oil. So keep getting the word out and that is all you can do.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Hello
I also wanted to add that if you order a kit from my site. I have a limted 100% customer satisfaction or your money back. www.cuttingedgewater4gas.com. That way for the people like boomhauer can really see that is works. But like I said above most do not even try the system they just say it does not and can not work.
Larry
September 10th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Why is it that those of you selling these kits fail to tell the whole story about the toxins causes by using stainless. See this link http://antique-engines.com/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm I’m real surprised that the EPA hasn’t started busting the people selling kits and I’d be even more surprised if they don’t start busting them sooner or later. At least you could change to graphite or carbon electrodes and get rid of the toxins! For anyone who falls for this, you need to read the info in the link above before building any kits or using free plans to build them with. You have people selling kits on the net who own more than one site and the other sites are supposedly independent test sites who claim to have tested the product sold and say it works. Of course Whois lets the cat out of the bag because the independent test sites are registered to the same people selling the kits and as a matter of fact the other sites are even registered to the same physical mailing address as the site selling the kits. I’m not naming any names here, but if you’re one of the people doing that then you should also be getting busted for fraud to!
The irony of all of this is that most of the people selling the kits tout how much better it is for the environment because cars with them pollute less. That isn’t true and not only that everyone that’s using them, building them or will be building them will be adding toxins to the sewer systems and ultimately to the waterways and ground water. (Not to mention possibly poising themselves doing it.)
September 11th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is stoned to death.
September 11th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
I installed the unit I built onto my truck.
It produced right at 2 liters per minute.
It made zero change in my mileage. It didn’t get better nor did it get worse.
After doing more research, I’ve discovered a similarity in rules.
The rule of volume in a given pipe size under a given pressure delivering a certain quantity of fluid, then doubling that same pipe and keeping the same pressure will quadruple the output of the quantity of fluid.
Considering this, I’m thinking the same is in reverse.
Doubling the volume of the engine displacement requires a quadrupling of HHO to achieve the same results.
I’m building a different type of cell to achieve this and will be testing again soon.
September 12th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Great comments, Steven F. Good luck with your adjustments!
September 13th, 2008 at 10:58 am
I read your posting and think you are way off line and even out of line. I am sorry but you need to re-read your link. It is a good link and I will post it on my site. The reason is because it tells people how to dispense of the waste you get when make the hydrogen. I think poeple need to know how to dispense the waste correctly. I wish I could say the same about the waste that comes out of the tail pipe of most cars and trucks that are produce today. As far as the test results comments you are correct that there are some people saying things and doing things that not are on the up and up. That does not mean that the systems do not work and that most of the people selling the system are not telling the truth. I know that least 65% of the testing and rankings for vehicles that are made today are one sided. That is that they are influence by the maker of the vehicle that is being tested. Also when it comes to the statement as far as MPG that the vehicle will get that is not real world either. Maybe we should start busting them for what they are doing also. In every industry there are companys that take advantage of people and HHO industry is no differnet. That does not mean that you should group everyone together.
September 14th, 2008 at 2:49 am
Good discussion.
David Smith - It might be the hour, but I’m trying to figure out an easy alternative to using stainless steel and I’m failing.
But, thank you for the note on stainless: I knew there was a reason why I didn’t want to use stainless, just couldn’t recall the exact chemistry, so I opted for copper instead (in a test gas generator).
I’m also curious why you folks are saying that baking soda is a bad idea, and that it’s corrosive. I’m sorry, but my understanding is that if you’re going to use an electrolyte, you’re going to have to use either an acid, base, or salt - all of which are corrosive, as far as I know. Is it all over the release of CO2 (better not make or eat bread anytime soon!), or is there something I’m missing?
I’ve got a buddy who said he read a paper a while back on the ‘ideal’ electrolyte to use for something like this, but he couldn’t find the paper or be more specific.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Larry, you might be the first to add a link to your site where people can find out what they are getting in to before doing it. The fact is that I don’t think I’ve found a site selling kits yet (or for that matter posting free “how to’s”) that tells people they could easily poison themselves and others by using stainless. (other than the site’s link which I posted) Without people knowing that then its likely no rubber gloves or other protection will be used when handling components and liquid after use and the liquid will likely be dumped down the drain to. As far as letting the liquid evaporate and then disposing of it correctly that could take a long time and there could be a large amount of it building up where ever it is being stored for evaporation (before it has a chance to evaporate.) The safest way to do it would be to use materials that wouldn’t produce toxins and could be dumped down drains. Stainless obviously isn’t it. Carbon or graphite rods and plates can be found on the internet and are not expensive, but no doubt there are other materials that can be used. I tried copper and within minutes the green copper oxide was covering it. I also have a feeling that it would last far less time that carbon or graphite and may produce toxins to.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:13 am
I have done a lot testing using other types of rods. I have found that stainless steel is the best for a lot of reasons. I have not updated my site with the info yet to do a tech problem with my site. I have sent out the info to the people that have puschase my product. I reason why steel is used is because it just works the best. I am open to try new things if you have a good idea let me know and I will try it. Then I will get back and let everyone know how it works.
September 16th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I’d suspect the whole reason stainless is pushed by all kit vendors is because it is a very hard metal and will last longer than most other thing that can be used. Unfortunately it has that bad side effect though which no one wants any prospective buyer to know about. Its also easy and cheap to come by so about anyone who wants to build their own or maybe build kits and sell them can easily get light switch plates or stainless MIG welding wire to use.
If I knew of something that worked better than stainless and didn’t have any bad baggage to go along with it then I’d probably start selling kits myself (If I thought they actually worked.) That isn’t the case though so I won’t be passing out and free information for others to capitalize on. Of course I really believe that you have a technical problem which keeps you from adding a disclaimer to your site, but then that would probably cause sales to plummet if you did. It might be beneficial though before someone like Erin Brockovich decided to go on a mission.
September 26th, 2008 at 11:12 am
for the electrodes, how about using other materials other than SS?
like aluminum, nickel, chrome plated metals and so forth???
September 26th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
How about admitting they don’t work and stop bilking people out of their money?
September 27th, 2008 at 3:10 am
the reason i asked is because i used 3 sets of cylindrical aluminum mesh (at least i would guess it is aluminum)and i was very amused by the amount of bubble action when i hooked it up to the battery.
September 27th, 2008 at 8:43 am
As I read it, Hexavalent Chromate is a product of off-gassing from the electrolysis process! It’s likely that the Chromium in the electrolyte is not hexavalent.
Still, this is good information, and people should be encouraged to replace electrolyte frequently, as to not let chromium products build up in the electrolyte.
I’d venture to say a carbide electode would be best on the + electrode, as this is the electrode of interest.
September 27th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Hexavalent chromium is present for at least 8 hours of cell break in. It should be handeld with care and taken to toxic waste recycling.
http://hach.com
product number 1252700
Kits about 20.00 go test for yourselves New cells do put it in water. I use cells and build them but extreme caution and responsibility needs to be taken when handling the old water.
October 5th, 2008 at 2:25 am
This is to David Smith and anyone that says they do not work. If you have not tried the system yourself why are you saying they do not work? I mean kits from a good dealer (one with tech support and good ways to handle to ECU issues). This is not to say that poeple who made there own system and installed them do not know what they are doing. What about a dealer who will give you our money back if the system does not work and increase your MPG? Or is it just easier to say that the system does not work and this is why…. I am willing to put my money and name on the line every time I send out a kit or install one. Why are the people who say the systems do not work willing to do the same? That is my question.
The system does not hurt your engine and it does not void any warranty on your vehicle. What do people like you have to lose? I know being incorrect about the things that you are saying. I did agree that people need to know how to deal with the chemicals that is left over from make the hydrogen. So I did add it the my installation instruction and maintanace of the system. My web site is www.cuttingedgewater4gas.com
Larry
October 14th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Hi all, I will be installing an HHO kit this week with a MAP enhancer. Can’t wait to see results.
I am getting 34/41 MPG right now.
I am going to see what I get after installation. I got two cells that each produce 1.7 - 2 L per minute.
This is going to be hooked up onto a Honda civic 96 1.6L engine.
Anyone know what kind of gains I can expect?
Very much appreciated!
and are teh chances of me blowing up my engine good?
October 16th, 2008 at 7:22 am
Well .. I finally finished by system and installed it. I did not have my amp meter when I first tested it. As such, the system was only running at 0.5 amps, hence, the first run served as the perfect “placebo” run, taking into account changes in driving habits etc that may contribute to higher mpg.
I’ve since raised the amps to 5 amps, and am currently running this tank of gas.
Will see if this technology really works.
October 16th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Rob …
I’ve been reading a lot about this Cr(IV) issue. I may get one of those kits and test my system.
Based on the literature, the formation of Cr(IV) is somewhat dependent on temperature. Exposure to Cr(IV) seems to be most relevant in chrome plating where the bath consists of Cr(IV) products that are their for the purpose of chrome plating.
Other routs of exposure are associated with the formation of Cr(IV) resulting from high temp applications such as S.S. welding.
Based on all this, there is something to be said for opting for a multi celled system using lower voltage, which results in less heat, as opposed to the Smack design or similar where a 12V current is present with significant heat production.
HEY …. for $20, I’ll buy the kit and test mine. My system runs cool. To boot, it’s mounted on the outside of the vehicle so it stays air cooled.
October 16th, 2008 at 8:34 am
I am trying to install an hho generator in my sons 2005 chevy silverado 1500. However, I can’t find a suitable vacuum hose connection to tap into. Had no problem with my 1997 Ford Mustang. By connecting to the air intake I do not get enough vacuum to see any bubbles in the generator so I’m worried about pressure build up. Anyone know how to do this in a 2005 Silverado 1500 6 cyl?
October 16th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Thanks Deanster for keeping us posted. Good luck!
October 23rd, 2008 at 8:19 am
I have been experimenting with one inch stainless steel tubing with a piece of three quarter copper tubing inside. I run my number eight copper stripped copper wire inside the copper pipe and flatten them out on a press to get a nice even flat electrode. The reason is stainless steel has about 40 times as much resistance as copper, so you get a better current flow.
I tied them all together with tie wraps and put them in a small shallow plastic cup filled with Epoxy putty and then a thin layer fiberglass resin between the plates just covering the putty. The top of the plates go through a hole cut in the lid of a pool filter with epoxy putty filling in the hole around the electrodes inside and outside. That way no copper is exposed to the air or electrolyte. I got one liter per minute but I did not have an amp meter to check my amperage.
After about an hour of testing and video making.. My old 12 volt battery died (hooked to a 200 amp battery charger) and I also ended up with a lot of red stuff in my electrolyte. I have no idea what the red stuff is. That’s about as far as I have got so far, but I thought I would post this new electrode design in case anyone else wants to experiment with it. You can buy copper bus bars with stainless steel shells on the Internet if it turned out to be a great discovery. Their bus bars do not contain any air trapped inside but probably cost an arm and a leg.
Dusty
November 4th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I’m new at this but I think I figured out a fix for many people making mountains out of molehills. Everyone talks about 12 volts being too much. It runs too hot, it draws too many amps, bla, bla, bla……
With my very limited experience it appears that any hho generator can be made to operate at any current by using more or less of your choice of catalyst. That’s it. It’s so easy. If you are running too hot, dump out some of your choice of liquid and dilute it with more distilled water. From what I see hho production is based on current, not voltage. Simply using more or less of your catalyst with distilled water you can adjust the current from milliamps to enough amps to melt your wires and kill your alternator.
The only problem is the fact that as the generator heats up, the current increases. For now I have found a happy medium that draws about 2.5 amps cold and about 7 amps if it gets really hot. The key point to remember is that the higher the current, the more HHO gas is produced.
The best possible fix I see is a current regulator so your HHO cell can produce the same amount of HHO over a wide range of temperatures. There are people working on this. Another 2nd best choice is to use a DC motor speed control. This would be manually adjusted by you as you see your unit drawing too much or too little amperage.
Let me know if I’m completely off my rocker or if you try adjusting the catalyst and it works for you.
November 18th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Willii,
Make sure you have a relay that only lets the gen operate while the fuel pump is running.
If you accidently let the gen run without the engine running this could happen:
http://www.mikecramer.com/images/intake1.jpg
November 21st, 2008 at 5:58 am
Turmoil Tony:
Yes amperage is adjusted through elyte. But temperature of your water has little to do with current. For example I have a 300 amp alternator on my rig and have 2 dry cell generators that pull a total of 130 amps. So 65 amps per cell. both cells have a shared 2 gallon resivour. I have 5 neutrals per cell yeilding a 2.25 cell voltage. The water has never went over 130 deg f and that was a 24 hour straigh drive.
Now the same set up used to only have a 4 neutral cell with 2.7 v per cell. Water gets up to 150 deg f in 3 hours.
I have a no neutral test cell that i hook up to the resivoir for demonstation and 50 amps boils that 2 gallons in 30 minutes.
Food for thought…….
December 3rd, 2008 at 10:49 am
Rob,
Interesting. I have not seen a “dry cell generator” before. Are you saying that your setup draws 130 amps when cold, and it stays at 130 amps when it is warmed up? I am curious what the ambient temperature is?
January 9th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
I am working on trying this stuff out on my 94 Chevy 4wd truck. I will try to document the performance before and after each modification. In my research I ran accross this gentleman’s site. He has quite a lot of interesting circuits. Here is a link to the ones regarding HHO
http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Hydrogen/Hydrogen.htm
I used his schematic and printed circuit drawing to make my own EFIE and it was not too hard. It was educational to learn something about electronic circuits.
I’ll bookmark this site and when I make some progress I’ll let you all know if it was good or bad.
January 10th, 2009 at 2:21 am
Thank you, and good luck!
October 13th, 2009 at 9:50 am
hello folks. i have purchasced several and made several of these hho generators with varried results. to date the best i have found is from a place called alternativefuel.com i have several of their units, very well made. the most important part of the system as far as im cocerened is the cooler. i have hooked this system up and found that to get the proper amount of hho gas out, you have to run it around 5-7 amps. 10 12 amps in winter. some testing has to be done here because when you run your solution through the cooler {mounted in front of rad} the unit, and resivor runs very cool. im using koh. steam distelled water. without the cooler it runs very hot. it is a dry cell with 9 plates made out of 316L stainless.the cooler is made from copper. hope this helps all.
October 13th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
i have also tried running a buck booster on this dry cell but the voltage drop is about 2.5 beetween cells so the buck booster wont work. the buck booster cuts the voltage down to 3.5 volts but keeps the current at 32 {amps} thaht way the volts carry the amps do the work, heat is kept down. however the dry cell with a cooler serems to be the best combination and most reasonable cost.
October 18th, 2009 at 7:56 am
as well the amp draw is only 8 amps, wireing is kept cool so is the cell and resivore, i have hooked the dry cell up to the resivor direct, so it is very portable, when im done driving, i can remove it and put it in the house, to stay warm.{in a safe place, away from children and pets}
February 12th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
I bought a generator and it sat around for almost a year. I put it on my 59 pickup that I use for the dumps and other dirty work. The only thing I did was to advance the timing and WOW what a diffenerce. The old guy only has a little more than 100,000 miles but is running like a wet cat. A few more small additions and then off to the body shop for a clean up. Hell I would rather drive the ol’ 59 now. Sweet!
February 13th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Congratulations!